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Nice one epic, good one Irrational (sorry, 2k games Boston). Proof that it is down to a good developer and programming team, not Epic's "lack of support for third-parties" or "unfinished code".

Saying that Epic's VP's word on how great of a company Epic really is, is just like taking a Sony fanboy's word on how great the PS3 is. No one got burned but you just now.

Concur with the Icarus. OT needs some calamine for his BURN.

He was praising 2K Boston, not Epic. Read the article.

I was just saying that Epic's support for Unreal Engine 3.0 can't be that bad if 2K Boston can make such good use of it without hassle.

And Icarus was wrong as he didn't read the actual article...so he got NUKED!!

This is just marketing spiel by press hungry Rein. Epic are getting negative publicity left, right and centre right now for their engine so this tedious 'quote' is just damage limitation. The developers created a cool game despite Epic not thanks to them.

Of course it is marketing spiel, but why not?
Plus, wasn't it only Silicon Knights who did teh nasty, I don't know of any others.

In the article, Mark Rein is giving himself a pat on the back for not only making a great engine, but also being a great developer. Trust me, I read it. For the record, SK isn't the only company out there saying that they're struggling with UE3. Go ahead and read this article as many times as you want, it doesn't change what the numerous other developers have said who have used UE3.

On top of all that, I played through BioShock, and it barely resembles UE3 at all. Thus seeing how long the game was actually in development I have to wonder how much of the UE3 they modified to their liking (as SK was having to do).

If SK aren't the only ones complaining, then tell me who else is. Just just state it.
And just because Bioshock has a different graphical style and was a while in development doesn't mean they had to modify the engine massively. Considering SK has spent 10 years on Too Human, and reveled a rather average trailer recently only shows that they lack the skills to pay the bills.

All he was saying is he is pleased that a third party was able to make somethign of his engine, and is good publicity for him after getting bad press from SK for it. Why is he not allowed to defend himself?

Hows does a game resemble an engine?

Well all of japan for one, you see how choppy Lost Odyssey is the engine isn't even in Japanese! That Frame City Killer got delayed or canceled by now because Namco couldn't use the engine properly and half the staff working on Lost Odyssey have to speak English and Japanese and Sakaguchi-san still said he was waiting on updates from epic after Gears of War release. So yeah the support is lacking LO would look like $hit if it wasn't an RPG.

Too Human has been in development for 10 freaking years. I guess when you suck at development, all you have left is to blame someone else.
Funny how I don't see 3DRealms blaming the Unreal Engine for Duke Nukem Whenever.

As Mark (hello, Mark - I presume that's the real Mark Rein?) points out, games don't look like (or 'resemble') engines.

Bioshock may be a heavily modified UE2.5 and UE3 hyrbid, or however you want to describe it, but the fact that it and Gears of War are two of the most successful games on the 360 (and new IPs to boot!) says a lot about the ways developers can take a technology to make something new, individual and distinct.

That Silicon Knights has seemingly failed to fill in the blanks that may be found in any games technology, and then blamed the vendor for it and sued them, speaks volumes.

The SK suit states that Epic failed to deliver on their contractual obligations. It's doesn't state that Epic failed to make their game for them. If Epic's lack of contract fulfilment contributed IN ANY WAY to a delay to ANY SK project using UE3, then SK have a case against Epic. This is a contract. A legal binding document. If Epic bit off more than they could chew, and couldn't deliver on time, then it's their freaking fault.

Too Human hasn't been "in development" for 10 years. It's been through several iterations, and is not a constant project. In that same timespan they have produced Eternal Darkness and MGS: Twin Snakes, two high quality games.

Skills to pay the bills? SK are entirely self funded through profits from previous games and original IP. They don't need to license their engine to fund development.

skills to pay the bills is an expression, look it up!

SilentType- I very much doubt that is really Mark Rein, just someone who has typed in his name. Most developers don't speak directly on messageboards as their PR guys don't like ti (Look at Ken Levine on 2K's forum for a recent example).
See, my name is David Cameron, or is it really???

What's this "as PR guys don't like it" business. Mark IS Epics PR guy...

Well he is hardy likely to post any kind of official comment on a message board is he?

We've checked - it is Mark. It's not a huge surprise: Mark posts on message boards quite frequently, and he did know we were running this story.

Good debatin' though, guys! Keep it up ;)

You didn't hear this from me (Mr Anonymous Internet Poster), but BioShock does not actually use UE3. It's closer to UE2.5. I.e. it's developed using a highly-customized UE2 engine and tool pipeline, but with UE3 rendering code.

Announcing it as a UE3 game is more of a promotional gimmick than the truth.

I think the whole SK vs Epic thing is getting out of hand on message boards. It is degenerating into rampant fanboyism,
all the people I know working for licensees report nothing but good things about the support and give a VERY realistic view of working with an in-developement engine over the last few months.

As for the whole "unreal engine 3 looking" nonsense, this is art pipeline workflow, NOT the engine, dictating visual style. Bioshock (hey, remember the topic in hand?) is a great example of an original art style which goes beyond the "bake every mesh and give it loads of specular" method that is unfortunately so prominent in all engines which make use of advanced materials.

Major props to 2k for producing what, in my opinion, is the most well rounded piece of entertainment software in some years (art, gameplay, atmosphere, audio, etc)

I am 99.9% sure that the person that posted above with the name "Mark Rein", is in fact, NOT the Mark Rein from Epic games. You would have to be an idiot to really believe that is Mark Rein.
But I am Paris Hilton!

Ah fluff. Games DO resemble engines so far as experienced people can look at a game and say 'That was made with xxxx'. But yes, endorse the UE2.5 comment above. I have severe doubts about bioshock being made with UE3 as it was provided. But then I am a bit cynical that way.

Digital Extremes, Koei and Mistwalker Studios are just a few of the other developers with public criticism of the engine.

Bioshock wasn't made with Unreal Engine 3 - 2K have always said it was built on a modified version of Unreal Engine 2.5. Mark has never said any different, nor has he tried to imply so - that's all been done by other people.

And to Ms. Hilton: We've checked, and it is the real Mark Rein. But it's nevertheless hot to have you here, Paris - sorry to hear about The Simple Life being cancelled :(

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